Curse

sigried · Mar 09, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

i Know but noted a slight inprovement in speed of those minions

kaldak · Mar 10, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

i believe the problem with fav winds i that it effects arrows, and its not very clear whether the little spikey things fiends throw are actually arrows. keep in mind you would NOT see a seperate damage number pop up, same as with winnowing (which does work for fiends)

bobrath · Mar 14, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Nice breakdown.

I want to point out that healing minions is one aspect of HA. Another side of the coin is that HA is a self-heal, canceling sacrifices and damage. It's true that you don't always use HA while in battle, but if you do it's nearly always as a self-heal. From that perspective HA is far better than HS, because of it's faster cast and recharge....and instant healing effect.

As far as healing the enemy, well, the consequences of a MM dying are WORSE than healing one or two enemies.

True enough, but in counter to that for a tombs MM, the times you are in combat are fairly abvious (ie pre planned) and dropping a healing spring as your rangers make their first pull means you are free during the battle to concentrate on combat instead of your health. Planning versus reacting. I do agree that HA is a superior heal.

Once you move out of Tombs, then yes a MM needs to be far more concerned with reactive healing and in those cases a N/Mo can be a more effective tool. I still like N/R in non-Tombs runs because I can be sure that winnowing will be up for my army. I trade the ability to have winnowing + healing spring for heal area + _____?

Regarding the various ranger spirits: Winnowing is the only one I've found to actually affect the dps of summons. The warrior shouts can affect summons, so a well timed charge can be fun.

X Crusader · Mar 14, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Now, I'm not actually a Minion Master myself, but what's wrong with a n/e with possibly this build?

Points would go in Soul Reaping and Death Magic.
1. Animate Bone Fiend
2. Blood of the Master
3. Verata's Sacrifice
4. Glyph of Renewal (E)
5. Glyph of Lesser Energy
3 other skills

Good energy management, near constant +10 health regen for all minions EVEN when they are attacking... whats wrong with that?

bobrath · Mar 15, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Crusader

Good energy management, near constant +10 health regen for all minions EVEN when they are attacking... whats wrong with that?

Primary thing will be the self healing aspect. You're going to be sacrificing quite often and that can put you in jeopardy. MMs really don't have a huge problem with energy - getting somewhere north of 10 energy every time something dies means not having to worry near as much.

shadedcrusade · Mar 15, 2006, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Nice point. I was using this recently:

[N/Mo: Death 16, Healing 7, Blood 7, Soul Reaping 10]
1. Animate Bone Fiend (Death Magic)
2. Verata’s Sacrifice (Death Magic)
3. Blood of the Master (Death Magic)
4. Heal Area (Healing Prayers)
5. Offering of Blood (Blood Magic)
6. Blood Ritual (Blood Magic)
7. Rotting Flesh (Death Magic)
8. Rebirth (Protection Prayers)

But switched to N/E to try out the GoR just last night. Using:
1. Glyph of Renewal (E)
2. Animate Bone Fiend
3. Animate Bone Horror
4. Glyph of Lesser Energy
5. Verata's Sacrifice
6. BOTM
7. [open as of right now, cap sig]
8. Res Sig

16 Death, 13 Soul Reaping.

I find much less energy problems with this build since my SR is higher, and instead of getting ~15 energy WITH points in blood invested PLUS sacrificing life, I can just cast GoLE for the same amount of energy. Works for me. GoR is basically 2x Verata's in a row for mega fiend regen. Using 2 summons also helps me pump out the Horrors when bodies are droppin' and fiends is not back up yet.

ONLY problem is self heal.. maybe I'll stick Taste of Death in that last slot or if I can come up with some other sort of heal.

SC

kaldak · Mar 16, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

i'd suggest going with blood renewal instead of killing off your minions for health. you do need to be careful with it, but it is a rather effective heal as long as you are

Dangerous_Reality · Mar 16, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

really good idea cause you can do winnow and you have also a pet

Bel Ebih · Mar 21, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaldak

i seem to remember reading that fav winds will not effect fiends...does anyone know for sure?

Favorable Winds does not have any effect on Fiends because, even though they are ranged attackers, they do not shoot 'arrows' which is what the skill calls for. Personally tested and true, it simply does not work.

Edit: I found the screenies of my test. Thought it'd be useful to put up.

A level 6 fiend attaking without Favorable Winds active:

The same level 6 fiend attacking the same target with Favorable Winds active:

As you can clearly see, if FW actually worked on Fiends, then when active, the damage should have been 8-9 (2-3 damage base + 6 from FW). But alas, with and without FW, the fiend was still doing 3 damage.

Fungus Amongus · Mar 21, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Referring to Heal Area:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

As far as healing the enemy, well, the consequences of a MM dying are WORSE than healing one or two enemies.

^
|
|

Major point that is sorely misunderstood.

Salokin · Mar 23, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Hows about

Animate Bone Horror/Fiend/Minions (cant decide

)
Death Nova
Taste of Death
Blood of the Master (mostly for while we're moving)
Verata's Sacrifice
Healing Spring
Predatory Season (Make sure you tell your healers)
Winnowing

I find that the combo of Predatory Season and Winnowing is quite good at during combat, though Monks sometimes get annoyed at PS. Fairly self explanatory otherwise, and I'm sure nothing that hasnt been seen before.

LoneWolfX · Mar 23, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

2 MM builds I ran for a while, both N/R, supplied as food for thought, not conclusive 'best' builds:

Defesive:-
Animate Bone Horror
Blood of the Master
Verata's Sacrifice
Healing Spring
Troll Unguent
Dryder's Defenses
Rez Sig

For when supplementing/replacing a tank - Make Horrors & keep them going. Using BotM & Healing Spring in the middle of Horrors can be dangerous, so Dryder's is there as a GetOutOfJailFreeCard. Room for Elite of your choice.

Offensive:-
Animate Bone Fiend
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master OR Healing Spring
Serpent's Quickness
Winnowing
Barbs
Rez Sig

Portable artillery. Make Fiends, keep degen down with SQ'd Verata's, and up damage with winnowing, and use barbs on anything that needs it. Balancing energy on this build can be an issue, last slot open to whatever you fancy.

Edit:

One more build just to finish the trilogy - When both tanking and damage are desired. Skill slots are tighter by virtue of covering 2 roles simultaneously.

Animate Bone Minions
Blood of the Master
Verata's Sacrifice
Serpent's Quickness
Healing Spring
Winnowing
Dryder's Defenses
Rez Sig

No Elite, indeed - there just isn't room, but you can always switch something out if you prefer.

studentochaos · Mar 23, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contessa

This is my PvE build

I'm so glad there are other N/R minion masters out there. I've experienced some descrimination for not running a standard N/M build, but other people in PUGs have loved it. I use my ranger skills to have a pet and use him for interupts and/or to gain energy with ferocious strike. Energizing Wind seems like a nice skill, but I haven't used it. I use disrupting lunge to sometimes stop other necros from stealing my corpses or just to interupt other casters. It's not a typical build, but it's the most fun I've had with any of my characters. It's great to have a zoo.

By the way, this is my first post on this form, so hello!

My general build:
Death: 16
Soul Reaping: 9-11
Beast Mastery: 9-11

Charm animal
Comfort animal
Feral lunge, or Ferocious strike or
Call of haste or Disrupting Lunge (Choose any 2 for your pet)
Animate bone minions
Verata's sacrifice
Deathly chill, Deathly swarm, Rotting flesh (depends on location)
Wild slot: Bone fiends, taste of death, plague touch (depends on location)

I use two weapon set. One with about 70 energy and the other 44. I can go into more detail about that, but the since this is about builds, I'll just focus on my spells.

I use my pet and one or two offensive skills to start my army. In battle I either raise minions, heal minions or both (depends on the the situation). I'm ok with some minions dieing during battle. Since I'm using raise minions (2 minions per corpse), energy isn't a problem with soul reaping. With a huge shield of minions, healing myself doesn't become a huge issue.

It works for me, please don't flame me.

This reminds me alot of how I played the game through my first time. In fact, kudos on thinking outside the box. My money is you will eventually drop the R secondary, but it will be nice to reach into for some builds you will come up with.

For a constructive suggestion, since you are using bone minions you should try to think less about the veratas sacrifice. The minions have less hp and do less damage so the sac isn't a great return. Try switching to death nova instead of the sac and don't worry about keep the minions at all. Monsters tend to aggro minions of all types before ANYTHING so the minions blowing up from the nova makes the bombers that replenish your health and put a nice hit on the enemy mobs. What you will find with this set up is that you will just use one or two corpses at the end of the battle and then death nova before the next mob. Four minion suicide bombers soften the toughest mob very well. Also, give well of suffering a try. AOE degen is great in PvE where you can control where the battle occurs (and its 6 degen combined with the poison off the death nova you can put each enemy mob at 10 degen for the whole battle).

To the OP:
A N/R minion master is ok but serpents quickness can't maintain constant verata sac alone. This means you need to be much more aggressive with your blood of the master and to use spirits to up your damage so that the minions do more damage while you have them. This way you maintain a good momentum (momentum is the only word a MM needs to know).

bobrath · Mar 23, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by studentochaos

A N/R minion master is ok but serpents quickness can't maintain constant verata sac alone. This means you need to be much more aggressive with your blood of the master and to use spirits to up your damage so that the minions do more damage while you have them. This way you maintain a good momentum (momentum is the only word a MM needs to know).

Good points, but remember that SQ also makes your summons available sooner as well. I like using it right before a battle for being able to use every corpse as soon as it pops - optimizes my soul reaping so that I'm not losing overflow energy.

kaldak · Mar 23, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

Good points, but remember that SQ also makes your summons available sooner as well. I like using it right before a battle for being able to use every corpse as soon as it pops - optimizes my soul reaping so that I'm not losing overflow energy.

I completely agree. Now that bloodstained boots work, there's always a bit of delay between the 2 animate skills while they both recharge. This is only made worse if you've got an item (such as bortak's set) which can further reduce cast time. I dont know of any MM build that can get an army up as quickly as a N/R with SQ in a corpse-heavy setting.

The fact that SQ also sometimes reduces the VS recharge is almost just a bonus.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 24, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I haven't seen them much anymore but I'm wondering...

Are bomber Minion Masters played anymore?

I still use mine occasionally and nobody has complained about lots of big green explosions killing things here and there...

Taste of Death Nova combo
Using Aura of Restoration [which oddly enough works well with Taste of Death]
9 SR allows a good gain when both your target and your minion dies with Death Nova
glyphs make energy use a LOT easier, not as hot as some, but better than having no e. manager

Keeper of Birds · Mar 24, 2006, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I use minion bombs all the time in ToPK. I find that the minions go down so fast that the taste of death is not necessary most times. The -105 you get at 16 death with poison on top of that really softens things up for the Rangers, plus you can put nova on the pets at the start of each level for a little extra help.

Contessa · Apr 18, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by studentochaos

This reminds me alot of how I played the game through my first time. In fact, kudos on thinking outside the box. My money is you will eventually drop the R secondary, but it will be nice to reach into for some builds you will come up with.

For a constructive suggestion, since you are using bone minions you should try to think less about the veratas sacrifice. The minions have less hp and do less damage so the sac isn't a great return. Try switching to death nova instead of the sac and don't worry about keep the minions at all. Monsters tend to aggro minions of all types before ANYTHING so the minions blowing up from the nova makes the bombers that replenish your health and put a nice hit on the enemy mobs. What you will find with this set up is that you will just use one or two corpses at the end of the battle and then death nova before the next mob. Four minion suicide bombers soften the toughest mob very well. Also, give well of suffering a try. AOE degen is great in PvE where you can control where the battle occurs (and its 6 degen combined with the poison off the death nova you can put each enemy mob at 10 degen for the whole battle).

To the OP:
A N/R minion master is ok but serpents quickness can't maintain constant verata sac alone. This means you need to be much more aggressive with your blood of the master and to use spirits to up your damage so that the minions do more damage while you have them. This way you maintain a good momentum (momentum is the only word a MM needs to know).

Thanks for your compliment for my "thinking outside the box." I would actually get very bored if I just kept copying and pasting the cookie-cutter builds out there.

I found the build that I posted above is good for when you haven't capped many elites. I used these skills prior to becoming level 20 and the soul reaping I got from minions helped to offset my lack of attribute points.

I agree, I never use serpent's quickness, but some people love it (like death nova). Death nova is more of a minion bomber build to me. Here are some more MM N/R builds to play with. I've kept 30-40 minion army going with some of these.

These are just some builds that I found work for me. Please go experiment. That's only way you'll know what you like. I hope this helps some N/R minion masters to try some new things. It's meant to give ideas, not to replace your creativity.

Ettin Killing Machine

Rotting Flesh (to prep for Virulence) or
Feral Lunge (to prep for Virulence)
Virulence
Bone Horrors
Verata's Sacrifice or Blood of the Master
Troll Unguent
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal

I didn't need to heal the minions much in this area because of their high-level. Also horrors worked better for me than fiends (although you can use them both if you want to). The horrors formed a nice wall in front of me to keep the Ettins and Mergoyles busy while I used my spells.

I just capped life transfer and found it to be a great spell for doing MM. I could sac life to heal minions and not even blink an eye at my health. I ran my friend from the War Camp to Copperhammer with no problems or deaths. I even had +8 moral when I got there.

Life and Death Lover
Death 16
Blood 11
SR 9
Beast Mastery (the rest of the points 6 or 7)

Used a +1 blood, Insightful bone staff, that lessoned cripple duration and improved recharge. It was a drop and worked well for this.

Deathly Chill (or whatever you like in the blood/death line for damage that casts quickly)
*Life Transfer
Fiends
Horrors
Verata's Sac
Blood of the Master
*Demonic Flesh
Energizing Wind for energy

I started with Energizing Wind, then Demonic Flesh prior to battle, then hit a fleshy enemy with Life Transfer and Deathly Chill. Then started to hit the minion healing spells and hit deathly chill whenever recharged. I never have energy problems because of energizing wind. I mainly take demonic flesh because I like to use superior runes. If I die, I don't have to worry about DP and it also gives a nice space for the extra health to spill into.

This would also work well with a weapon that helps with death skill recharge and casting.

*If you haven't capped life transfer. Take the points out of blood magic and put it in Wilderness Survival for Troll Unguent. Get rid or demonic flesh and put a rez sig or cap sig in the available slot.

Here are some spells I like to use (copied from my post in another thread)

Energizing Wind: Create a level 1...8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all skills cost 15 Energy less (minimum cost 10 Energy), and skills recharge 25% slower than normal. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds.

Sometimes I take a pet and spam Disrupting Lunge for interupts and Ferocious Strike for energy.

Ferocious Strike: Your animal companion attempts a Ferocious Strike that deals +13...25 damage. If that attack hits, you gain adrenaline and 3...9 Energy. Energy cost 5, Instant casting, 8 seconds to recharge.

Troll Unguent is wonderful to offset blood sacrificing spells. You can spam Blood of the Master easily with this. I tried Healing Spring, but preferred BotM because it's faster.

Niosisw · Apr 18, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Callingwell

Animate bone fiend
Verratta's Sacrifice
Offering of Blood
Serpent's Quickness
Favorable Winds
Winnowing
Healing Spring
Res Signet

SR 2+1
Blood 9+1
Death 12+4
MM 5
WS 8

This build works perfectly well, capable of keeping 16-20 fiends alive and also adding 10 bonus damage per fiend. OoB is used to assure a continuous fiend supply so you wont have to wait for energy regain therewith causing fiend degen to increase.

Edit: And reactions I had from ppl while I was running this build include "I never want a N/Mo MM any more, just give me a N/R"

I'm 90% positive Winnowing doesn't stack with minions....

I've seen screenies.

maxpower · Apr 18, 2006, 09:14 PM // 21:14

i prefer a n/e over a n/mo myself, haven't tested n/r yet though.

i usually run with:

12+4 death
and 12+3 soul reaping

and skillwise i use

1.rotting flesh or something else for additional damage
2. blood of the master
3. veratas sacrifice
4. glyph of energy (elite)
5: bone horrors
6: bone fiends
7: taste of death (or another helpful spell if i got good monks in my group)
8: rez signet

works the best for me, but i think i'll give the n/r a try soon.

gotta love that glyph of energy doesn't need any attribute points.